S04 E04: Unlocking the Secrets of Mental Well-Being Through Employee Engagement

In the fourth episode of this season of CultureClub X powered by CultureMonkey, we have with us Jennifer Paxton, Co-founder of Jamyr and former VP of people at Smile.io, who discusses the significance of building a space for employees’ mental health through workplace engagement practices. 

About Jennifer – 

Jennifer is a highly passionate, energetic and experienced HR professional with expertise in high-growth tech startups. She has independently designed a rewards program and a manager career development program to provide equitable opportunities across her organization.  

Over the past 10 years, she has developed a passion for building and scaling startups; giving employees the structure and support they need to flourish and grow. 

She loves coaching managers, fostering a culture of feedback, and creating programs that help build a sense of belonging. 

Jennifer has worked with leading organizations like Privy (acquired by Attentive), TrueMotion, Rapid7 to name a few. She has been a part of three successful acquisitions and almost all of her companies have won “Best Place to Work” awards at least once while she was there. 

An alumna of Boston Conservatory, Berklee,  she holds a professional license in HR from HRCI and sits on the Cultural Alliance of Medfield’s board. 

Here’s the gist of what Jennifer speaks about in this video:

  • The importance of providing adequate attention to every employee’s emotional health and mental well-being to positively impact business in every aspect. 
  • Tips and tricks for organizations to train and support HRs to ensure their mental well-being and reduce the burnout rates among them
  • The primary signs that people leaders and managers should look out for are to support and gauge the mental health of their team members
  • How poor mental health among employees is linked with lack of belongingness and top ways to implement DEI-centric cultures that emphasize mental health.

Catch all this and more with Jennifer Paxton in S04 E04 of CultureClub X.

Transcript –

Diana – Hello everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of CultureClub X, powered by CultureMonkey. I’m your host, Diana Blass.

CultureMonkey is a complete employee engagement platform that helps people leaders listen to their employees and enhance workplace cultures.

In the fourth episode of CultureClub X, I have with us Jennifer Paxton, VP of People at Smile.io.

Welcome, Jennifer. It’s great to have you with us today.

Jennifer – Thank you so much. I’m so excited to chat with you today.

Diana – Well, thanks again and I know this is going to be a great conversation, but first, let’s talk a little bit about your background. 

Jennifer is a highly passionate and energetic and experienced HR executive with expertise in high growth tech startups. She has independently designed a rewards program and a manager career development program to provide equitable opportunities across her organization.

Over the past 10 years, she has developed a passion for building and scaling startups, giving employees the structure and support they need to flourish and grow. She loves coaching managers, fostering a culture of feedback, and creating programs that help build a sense of belonging.

Jennifer has worked with leading organizations like Privy, which was acquired by Attentive, True Motion, and Logentries, acquired by Rapid7, just to name a few. She’s been part of three successful acquisitions and almost all of her companies have won “Best Place to Work” at least once while she was there.

An alumna of Boston Conservatory, Berklee, she holds a professional license in HR from HRCI and sits on the Cultural Alliance of Medfield’s board. She’s a mom of two girls, loves being outdoors, eating tacos and drinking her weight in loose teas.

Jennifer, it’s a pleasure to host you today!

Welcome again to CultureClub X’s videocast on “Unlocking the Secrets of Mental Well-being Through Employee Engagement.”

Before we begin, tell us more about you and what you’re doing today.

Jennifer – So there’s been a few beautiful acquisitions that I’ve been a part of, but have helped kind of those smaller startups too, to scale to kind of acquisition level, which has been wonderful and a wild ride for sure.

And I feel like my kind of near and dearest kind of heart is in those smaller startups that do not have structure yet and actually are really primed to have someone come in and help to guide and shape that culture and just kind of build a place that employees really want to work at but also really want to thrive at too.

Diana – Definitely! Well, all really impressive stuff there and I’m so excited to dive into today’s topic. So without further ado, let’s get started.

What is the risk that organizations carry when they don’t give adequate attention to the emotional health of their employees?

Jennifer – I feel like there’s been a lot written on this, especially since, you know, the pandemic. But employees, kind of mental health and mental well-being and just wellness in all, really affects every aspect of the business from the employees level of productivity to kind of their engagement level of collaboration or even being able to think about things for the future, you know, thinking about kind of innovation for the future of the product or for future of the organization.

And then also, you know, it actually has a really direct correlation to just the overall culture of the company. If people are feeling really stressed out, if they’re feeling like they can’t take a break, that is going to start to really shape how people are going to communicate with each other and just shape the overall culture of the organization too.

So there’s a lot of things I think that tie directly into the success of the business to kind of the success of employees being, you know, feeling comfortable from a mental health perspective and from a well-being perspective too.

Diana – Yeah. I am so excited to talk about this topic with you today. Just the research I did before our interview, I was shocked by some of these numbers.

I mean, the fact that 68% of millennials, 81% of Gen Zers have left roles for mental health reasons, I mean, it’s hard enough to keep engaged employees today in the market and so the idea that mental health can have that much of an impact as to why someone would leave that’s according to World Health Organization, it’s just crazy. It really is.

Jennifer – And you think about like, the employees in general like leaving for mental health. But with my kind of own data points recently, I’ve talked to a lot of just HR professionals that are leaving the field or are just taking a break for a while because of their own mental health and needing to recenter and reset themselves to.

Diana – In the post pandemic world, HRs are expected to help employees with mental health and burnout issues, but as a result, HRs are getting burnt out themselves.

The first question, how can organizations better train and support HRs to ensure their mental well-being?

Jennifer – Yeah, well, I mean you, you said kind of one of the problems and the challenges I think that we face is that we’re so busy on the HR side taking care of everyone else’s needs or thinking about everyone else, that we really do sometimes forget about ourselves.

And I think especially with the pandemic, people were just looking to HR for all the answers. And I know even, you know, myself, I put a lot of pressure on myself to have all those answers and be able to be perfect all the time and it was very, very stressful for that.

So, I think about it kind of on the flip side of that, of organizations need to, I would say like buffer in grace so that, “Hey, HR doesn’t have all the answers here,” or “Let’s think about a collaborative approach when we’re developing policies.”

It doesn’t have to just fall all on HR shoulders for that. It really needs to be a collective kind of agreement from the entire leadership team. I think that’s really important. And then the other thing that I think companies should do, which I think would help HR to not be as burnt out, is to give us budget.

You know like, there are so many times when, you know, you could ask for something and ask for something and ask for something, and if you get told no so many times, eventually you’re going to feel burnt out as well.

And honestly feel just, you know, kind of not disappointed is not the right word, but dissatisfied or almost like disincentivized to do other things because you feel like you just don’t have the budget to do it as well.

So I think it’s one of those things where you have to, number one, acknowledge that, you know, it’s not supposed to just kind of all fall on HR’s shoulders. Number two, HR is not perfect and no one should be held to that standard. 

And then the number three is you really have to invest in this, which means putting money into it, means keeping the conversation going, meaning it’s not just coming from HR, it’s coming from lots of different leaders at the organization as well. 

Diana – It’s really, it’s interesting. You’re right. HR always has to be that cheerleader, right? To maintain the culture across the organization or the persona. But what about them?

And when you say investments, and I’m sure we’ll dig further into this, but what are some top things that sometimes don’t get budgeted for that you think are critical?

Jennifer – Yeah, so many different ones. I think one of them is just investing in, you know, mental health in your benefits plan. It was definitely more of an, you know, afterthought for a lot of years.

And I think with the pandemic, it is kind of risen to the top of one of the needs that employees are asking for at this point. And I think companies are realizing they need to have that be in their benefits plan and also kind of having, you know, an employee resource group for it as well is really, really important.

Those sometimes can fly under the radar and then I think table stake sometimes is like, “Hey can you have a mental resiliency workshop?” or “Can you have yoga or meditation?”

And I think companies had some of those previous to the pandemic where they’d have like a yoga teacher come in and teach a yoga session or have a meditation, but you didn’t kind of go deeper than that and have a conversation, really around mental health.

And there’s also been a lot of mental health apps as well. I feel like I’m answering the next question now, but I’m going to go for it.

Diana – Yeah!

Jennifer – But there’s been a lot of great kind of mental health apps like “Spill” that has come out that integrates in with Slack where you can actually connect directly with a therapist in the app and then also schedule a live session if you needed to. We’ve used it in one of my previous companies, so I speak very highly of it.

And then the last thing I think that still kind of, not flies under the radar, exactly. And when you think about budget, it’s not one of those things that is directly budget, but it’s Wellness Days.

So people are still even companies that have like, unlimited PTO, like unlimited PTO, and then it’s so broad. And then employees are like, what’s normal? What’s average? What do people really take?

And then you can do the same thing with Wellness Days as well as Wellness Days can be separate from PTO days. You don’t have to lump them all in. And then from a data perspective, it’s great because you can tell how many people are actually taking the Wellness Days and what’s the average people are taking.

And you can tell your teams about that to normalize it a little bit more and hopefully destigmatize it.

That is a lot. So I’m going to stop talking for a minute. Sorry.

Diana – No, everything you say, it’s very interesting to think about how it’s playing out in various corporations, businesses, and just sticking back to interviews we’ve already conducted in this season, it seems to be a common theme that employees don’t take their PTO days even if it’s unlimited and there’s such an effort now to ensure that people take off when they are taking off even, not sending emails or checking your Slack messages when you are off.

So, it’s interesting to think about those themes. So, I’m glad you dug into that a little bit and I’m sure we’ll dig further into that as we go through our questions.

How should leaders effectively manage their employees’ mental health and their workload in order to avoid a decrease in productivity and potential employee attrition?

Jennifer – You actually brought up a really great point of, you know, actually being off when you’re off. And I think that leaders really have to model that behavior.

If you’re a leader and you are on vacation, but you’re checking email, you’re Slacking people, you’re taking calls, then your team is going to see you’re doing that behavior, oh, I have to do that too.

And so if you want to actually really have people disconnect, you have to disconnect as well. Which I know is hard, believe me, I know it’s hard. But it has to be done. And you have to think about it from a “not your perspective”, but your team’s perspective.

How is this going to be perceived if I am on Slack? How is this going to be perceived if I am checking email and sending emails while I’m on vacation? Like, what pressure am I going to be putting on my team to do the same? Because I’m doing it. I’m modeling bad behavior here.

And the other part of that is just setting clear boundaries just in general. So, I’ve worked for global teams where we have very asynchronous communication that goes on. And that can be very challenging if you’re not setting your own boundaries.

So depending on kind of when you’re working during the day, that might overlap with when another person is working, but also you, don’t want to be sending emails, or maybe you do, I don’t know, but you probably don’t want to be sending emails at 10:00 p.m. at night, you know, when that other person is, you know, just waking up.

You really want to set those expectations, but also have your own boundaries because that can also lead to burn out. I’ve definitely worked a few, like ten hour days where it’s just at the end of the day, I’m like, I don’t want to do anything, and I have two kids, so it’s like, I don’t want to talk to my kids at that point.

And then I know I’ve done a disservice to the company and to myself and my well-being as well. Obviously, there are going to be like, instances where this is like, not avoidable whatsoever, but when it becomes the norm, that can be, you know, when you’re like, oh, I need to be better at modeling this behavior and hopefully my team doesn’t, doesn’t see me doing this and do it themselves too. That’s one kind of modeling the behavior.

And then definitely as a leader as well, you know, working from home, it’s really become harder to see when people are struggling. And see, I think that leadership should even have kind of those check-ins with people and have kind of those messages that go out or like, hey, let’s just grab like 15 minutes.

We can be in, you know, a Slack huddle, we could be on a Zoom, like, whatever you want to do here, but I just want to see how you’re doing. And I think it means a lot and it carries a lot of weight when leadership does that and really checks in.

Not just one of those like, “Hey, how are you doing?” “Oh, I’m fine, thanks,” and then gets off. Like it’s, you really want to have an actual conversation with the person too.

So, yeah, I’d probably say that’s kind of what I would want to make sure that leadership is doing, and I’m modeling as a leader myself.

Diana – Definitely. Yeah. I can tell you how much I resonate with what you just said and even just when I speak to friends of mine in the common theme is that, you know, the fear of taking off and you want to progress in your career, and so naturally you look at those ahead of you in line, and if they’re saying, “Oh, I’m taking off, but still available, reach out to me whenever,” it sets a tone, it really does.

And I think you want to send that email when it’s the weekend it’s top of your mind, but there needs to be that thought of how that then translates to those you work with. And it’s hard.

It really brings in so many personalities, and I suppose that’s where culture really comes into play, you know?

Jennifer – Yeah. The other thing I’ll say is there’s so many great technologies out there now with delayed send. So for some reason, hey, you need to get that idea out there. You could still do a delayed send and they will never know that you did it on the weekends.

But again, you have to think about like your own well-being after that still. But, there’s yeah.

Diana – That’s a great point. I think that a lot of that’s becoming more common and even I mean, I guess you can even take back an email, I think now..there are so many ways to manage your virtual communication. It’s interesting.

What signs can managers look for to gauge the emotional and mental health of their team members?

How can they become first responders to employees dealing with such issues? 

Jennifer – And in those check-ins, there’s definitely, hopefully you’re doing these via video or even live in person, but you can start to see, kind of, has their body language change, you know, and then kind of start to really pay attention to what that is.

Because there’s a very big difference between someone like this and someone like this in a meeting, right? And so I think that it’s worth, like, managers being very in tune to that. And then also, I kind of mentioned this earlier, but like, when you’re doing those check-ins, like asking those real questions, I’ve found and this is not like I don’t have data on it, I wish I did, but when people are like, “Hey, how are you doing?”

And people are like, “I’m good, it’s fine,” and they kind of shrug it off, that could be an opportunity to ask like, “No, really, how are you doing?” “I just want to check-in, making sure, you know, you’re doing okay,” or maybe, “Hey, you know, I’ve noticed your X, Y, and Z is happening, just want to talk to you a little bit about that.”

Usually as well like, we’ll see a direct correlation between employees happiness and engagement to productivity. And so if you’re noticing kind of whole productivity is slipping or you know, they’re just not like contributing to the public spaces like they used to, like, if they’re not contributing on Slack as much, you know, we have employees that will do emojis on every single post.

And then if they’re not doing emojis on those posts, like, oh, maybe they’re not as engaged anymore, like, what do you do? And it subtle things like that, that you can start to start to pay attention to.

And then I think it also managers can just set kind of the foundation for, I want to build a space and a relationship with you, where you feel comfortable coming to me with anything, you feel comfortable bringing me, like, hey, I feel like I’m not doing well in this. Can you like, check on me on this?

Or like, hey, I’m going through a lot right now. I need to take a break and I want to build that space for you. Until like, having that conversation with your direct report and just laying that kind of psychological safety foundation, I think is really important. And then, you know, being accountable to them with that as well.

Because if they are going through something, that means you’re definitely checking on them, hopefully more frequently as well to see how are they doing, what else can you do, here’s these resources over here, here’s this resource group, we have this app, we have, you know, additional like, HSA for you, whatever your company provides, and then potentially also managers could advocate for members of their team as well, you know, because they probably have a bigger ear to the leadership team.

And so, hey, my team is been experiencing burnout a lot more. Could we do this at the company level to normalize, you know, X, Y and Z? Could we do a company wide mental health day? Is that possible?

So, I’d say those are kind of the things I would encourage managers to do.

Diana – Yeah, it’s definitely interesting, you think about technology, and there’s been so many articles today about how companies are investing in ways to track their employees, and but you’re bringing up a really positive way and other ways that it’s being done.

So, I think that gets lost in the message out there of how to use the technology to your advantage to spot signs like you’re just describing.

How do you encourage that at your companies now? I mean, do you have training sessions to help them know, like you mentioned, the body language, for example, things that may not just be that in tune to?

Jennifer – Yeah, well, I don’t have a specific training for this, but we do have, you know, manager, we had manager training last year which talked a little bit more about kind of body language and meetings and how to build that trust level with employees.

We haven’t decided to do it again this next year yet, hopefully. But then we also have just a manager group that people feel very comfortable bringing up and rising things that might be seeing, might be hearing from direct reports in there.

And then the other thing I think is really special is that we have managers that have almost like a buddy, it happened more organically, but people that they could turn to, peers that they could turn to and really have a conversation of like, what are you seeing? I’m seeing this. Like, I’m feeling like this. Are you feeling like this? And so I think that that’s been helpful as well for them.

Diana – Definitely. And I think this is a good point in our conversation to bring in your, the loose teas that you have, and we talked about creating a really calm space, right? I love what you described, how you bring it. I mean, you don’t purposely bring it into meetings, but it comes across and I think it makes you much more approachable and perhaps those who work with want to then communicate with you more often or open up to you.

Jennifer – Yeah, well, and I think that’s, you know, the level of vulnerability that you bring to a conversation is hopefully, you know, the level of vulnerability you’re going to get back. And making it more of a casual conversation is what I like to do, especially in kind of those one on ones with managers.

I want them to be, to kind of see me as this kind of trusted, trusted friend, trusted advisor that they can come to and ask questions for. They can be like, oh, I feel like I’m failing here. Can you help me with this? Like, yeah, sure. And the great thing about my position is none of them report in to me. And so I don’t have any control over their performance management or their salaries or anything or their progression.

Like, I am just here as a resource to help them and to be a sounding board for them. So, yeah, setting the stage. I have this big coffee pot that I well, teapot, sorry, teapot that I bring in and it has like this great little loose leaf tea. And then I just pour some tea and we talk and I sip tea and I also think for me, as an HR professional, it helps me to just listen.

I feel like I’m talking a lot, but it helps me just like if I’m just sipping tea and they’re talking, then I’m not talking back. I’m just listening and enjoying this beautiful tea too, so.

Diana – No, I mean, It’s so authentic. It’s something you really enjoy. And when that comes across in a conversation where someone’s just relaxed and being themselves, you naturally, I would think, want to open up more and so, create that relationship, which is great.

Do you think a lack of belonging is linked to the poor mental health of employees? How can organizations support and promote DEI-centric cultures that emphasize mental health? 

Jennifer – Yeah, I definitely do. When an employee feels, like they have to be performative and they’re not being able to bring their whole selves to work and what their culture is or you know, who they are as a human, it is very, very challenging. 

I think from an inclusion and a belonging kind of standpoint, there’s so many kind of just stigmas out there about mental health and of course, access is not equal and so that can be very challenging. 

And also from a cultural standpoint, you know, again, I’ve supported kind of global cultures where like, some cultures, it’s very, you know, like standard or like it’s something that people will do or they will just talk about how they’re feeling. And other cultures are very walled off and buttoned up and that is not something they would ever talk about.

And so you really have to think about, you know, where are people coming from and how can you build an inclusive space that is built for all at that point too?

And I think that mental health is definitely a big piece of it because it affects so much of a person’s, like being, right? It affects kind of who they are as a human, how they relate to others, how they communicate, like, everything can get tied back to it.

So, I think being able to provide that kind of resource for mental health and also championing flexibility and just being, you know, vulnerable is gonna help build that inclusive space.

Yeah, there’s a lot of people that still, yeah, feel like they can’t say when they’re struggling and it could be because, you know, they feel concerned of how they’re going to get perceived.

Maybe there’s someone who is new in their career and they’re trying to, you know, be seen as this leader, or maybe there, you know, a person later on in their career that is just like, well, I’ve been seen as this like, stoic person, this like, leader, and I have to be like, stern, I have to be this kind of cookie cutter way. And I can’t be vulnerable because people might see me differently.

I think all of those things tie into inclusion and belonging.

Diana – Definitely.  Yeah, it’s interesting to think about the impact that DEI initiatives do have on an organization’s overall culture and success. We just talked about, you know, your vulnerability and how the tea is something that’s so authentic to you and personal to you, and so the idea that others may have that from different cultures and want to bring that to the table, but the nerve to do so is alarming.

And I mean, the research even backs this up, that World Health Organization, I mentioned earlier, with it’s study, it shows that there’s been an increase of respondents who say that DEI is a mental health issue.

And this is just within a couple of years. In 2019, 41% said it was an issue and now that number is up to 54%. And so again, just within like a two, three year period, you see that increase on the rise. So,

Jennifer – Yeah,

Diana – Certainly interesting to look at that.

How do you think technology can help HRs and managers to effectively monitor and improve their workforce’s mental wellness?

Jennifer – Well, I do think that there are some really great technologies, like I mentioned, kind of one of the apps, of kind of getting access to the mental health resources Spill and I think that’s wonderful from a resources perspective.

But then the other technologies that are actually factoring in, you know, employees well-being and how they’re feeling. So those pulse surveys as well, I think are really great because you can, you know, honestly, during the year you can kind of see how are people feeling and is it up, is it down? Why is it one way or another? 

There’s also some pulse surveys that actually will even break those down into, you know like relationship with manager, overall happiness, recognition, like they’ll break it into even smaller things so that you can see what segment needs potentially a little bit more, either resources, more time and attention, you name it there.

And then, at the end of the year you can actually, you know, go back through the data, which I think is also really helpful from tools, as you can see, you know, okay, our pulse survey was really high during this time. Why was it high during that time? What made it, you know, what made employees potentially even more employees report in? Or our participation rate was really low during this time, I’m wondering why people didn’t participate. Was it they were too busy? Did they not want to participate? Like, what, what was it about kind of that time? 

And, and you can take the, the data that you see and then start to understand what might affect that data. And that helps you, I think, in the future, of course, thinking about like, where you’re going to allocate your budget? What are the resources you need to get? Maybe even, hey, my tool is not good enough for reporting. I don’t know, you name it.

I think tools can be really great for that and tools can be a resource. A tool is not going to solve everything, obviously, too, but that can really help. To your point, though, with the monitoring tools, not a fan.

Just because I think there’s a flexibility and kind of a level of choice that employees crave and need and sometimes it just doesn’t, tools just are very binary and it’s not going to help for that kind of situation.

But I would say for the most part, you know, if you’re using the tool the way it’s supposed to be used or even using it with good intentions, then like that’s gonna be the kind of positive part of the tools.

Diana – Definitely, yeah. I mean, we’ve been hearing for years now that data is a new oil. So, it’s fascinating to see how it’s playing out across industries like HR.

Are there specific ways you could speak to where people have their head in the sand, the whole getting so involved in their work that you don’t really see the big picture sometimes or sometimes even things right in front of you get lost.

So I’m wondering, is there anything, sorry, something’s falling in front of me?

Is there anything that came across in your research that you then spotted were able to acknowledge change? What value have you gotten from the research?

Jennifer – Yeah, well, the one thing I found fascinating actually, was the lagging indicators because it wasn’t one of those things where like something really big at the company happened and then that week the pulse surveys spiked, right?

It was actually like, oh, it took people about a week to digest it and then ride in on how they’re really feeling at that point. And I think that was something that as a human, I should know, right? But like, I immediately am like, oh, what happened in the data? Where was it?

And when I see kind of like, oh, these spikes happen or these dips happened, I’d be like, what happened that week? And then I was like, no, no, no, let’s go back a week or two.

Because sometimes people have to go through different stages to get to answering a survey in different ways. So, that was interesting, and then, the other part was just the level of participation. 

I have been championing, getting these poll surveys out and trying to educate employees on like, hey, why do I want to get this from you? Why should you fill this in? And seeing kind of, hey, if you fill this in, I’m going to understand you, X, Y and Z, and I’m going to be able to do this with our budget next year, hopefully.

And I think that’s been helpful from getting the data and interpreting the data perspective. I haven’t done it on mine personally. And I think that’s something that maybe HR people should actually do is pull out their own survey data that they did on themselves and plot it out for the year and see like, how was I feeling during this time?

Given hopefully they’re answering the pulse surveys honestly and not just like, you know, answering them positively or whatever to skew the numbers because you want to answer them positive or you want to answer them realistically here.

But it might be interesting to see how are you feeling during this time, too, and take a little bit of reflecting time.

Diana – Yeah.  That brings us back to the first question we talked about with the HR burnout. It’s always so attentive towards others, you forget about yourself. So, it’s nice to end on that note. So, that wraps up our questions today.

Well, it was wonderful to hear you talk today, Jen, in depth about mental health. I’m truly blown away by your knowledge on it.

Mental health in the workplace is the upcoming revolution, and employees expect more sensitivity and coverage around it.

With CultureMonkey, people leaders can listen and understand the needs of their employees, effectively, create mental health initiatives in accordance and enhance employee productivity.

So visit culturemonkey.io to see how you can improve your workplace culture today.

With that, we conclude this episode of CultureClub X. Thank you, Jennifer. It was delightful to have you on, and we learned so much from you today.

Please let our viewers know how they can connect with you. If they want to have a quick chat or share their thoughts.

Jennifer – Please reach out to me on LinkedIn. I love a LinkedIn message. And connect with me on LinkedIn. All my connections are open, so I love, I love getting to meet new people and networking.

Diana – Well, that’s all we have for you in this episode of CultureClub X powered by CultureMonkey.

Until next time, this is your host, Diana Blass, signing off.