CultureClub X · S06 E12
Civility Partners CEO Catherine Mattice on treating trust as a strategic KPI. Why trust breaks down through unaddressed behaviors, why engagement is an outcome of culture, how to measure trust through surprise exits and early HR conversations, and how pulse surveys turn culture into performance.
TL;DR
Catherine Mattice is the founder and CEO of Civility Partners, an organizational development firm that helps companies build respectful workplace cultures and turn around toxic ones.
In this episode of CultureClub X, she makes the case for treating trust as a strategic KPI: something you define, measure, and manage like any other business goal. You will learn how trust actually breaks down inside high-performing teams, why your engagement score is not the same as your culture, how to measure trust through behavior, and how pulse surveys turn culture into a genuine performance engine.
The business case is hard to argue with. Gallup’s State of the Global Workplace: 2026 report found that only 20% of employees worldwide were engaged in 2025, and that low engagement costs the world economy roughly $10 trillion in lost productivity.
The flip side is equally clear: in Paul Zak’s research for Harvard Business Review (2017), people at high-trust companies reported 50% higher productivity, 76% more engagement, 74% less stress, and 40% less burnout than people at low-trust companies. Trust is not a soft topic.
It is a performance variable.
The most common way trust erodes is not a scandal or a single betrayal. It is the accumulation of small, subtle behaviors that no policy covers. Catherine points to microaggressions, gossip, incivility, and sarcasm: the kind of conduct that feels minor in isolation but compounds into what she calls death by a thousand cuts.
These behaviors slip past because they are not unlawful and not against the rules, so managers let them go rather than micromanage adult colleagues. Over time they grow more frequent and more aggressive, and the trust between people quietly drains away.
Understanding how microaggressions at work operate is the first step to addressing them before they harden into a toxic work environment.
The key is that when that behavior isn’t addressed early on, because those little moments do break trust, then they start to go on and on, and then trust just disappears over time.
Catherine knows this pattern from the inside. Early in her career she worked in HR for a company with one deeply toxic person, and she watched the complaints and turnover pile up. When her own concerns went unheard, her loyalty faded and her performance dropped. She made a conscious choice to disengage, a behavior we would now call quiet quitting, long before that phrase existed.
That is exactly how the spiral works: when people feel their employer does not care, they stop caring back, and their manager senses the withdrawal, which erodes trust further in both directions.
The same dynamic shows up today in quiet quitting examples and in the broader rise of disengaged employees.
The lesson is that small, tolerated behaviors are early warning signs, not background noise.
Most organizations already run an engagement survey, and Catherine is clear that this is a good thing. But she draws a distinction that reframes the entire measurement conversation: engagement is an outcome of culture, not culture itself. A strong score is an indicator that your culture is probably healthy, yet it does not tell you what is actually happening underneath.
Treating the engagement number as the final word is how leaders miss the relationships, the psychological safety, and the day-to-day friction that the score quietly averages out.
Engagement is an outcome of culture, though. It’s not necessarily telling you about your culture.
Her recommendation is to widen the lens. Keep measuring engagement, but also measure relationships, psychological safety at work, and efficiency, asking blunt questions like whether people get what they need in a timely way.
Pair the numbers with a listening tour: walk around, ask people what the culture is really like in their own words, and notice where reality diverges from the dashboard. The goal is to understand the culture that produces the score, not to mistake the score for the culture.
That distinction is what turns a survey into a real read on employee sentiment.
There is a comfortable myth that culture flows down from the executive team. Catherine pushes back hard. Leadership matters and can influence culture, but ask anyone what it is like to work somewhere and they will not describe the CEO. They will describe their team and their manager. Culture, in her framing, is defined by daily interactions, which means every single person carries the ability to shape it.
That is a more demanding idea than top-down culture, because it puts responsibility on managers and peers, not just on a values statement on the website.
Our understanding of culture comes from our daily interactions, and that means that every single person has the ability to influence culture.
This is also why values need to be refreshed, and refreshed in the right direction. Too many companies post core values on a website and run a nomination program, then wonder why behavior never changes.
Catherine argues that values should be treated as fluid and built from the bottom up: ask employees what the team already lives by, highlight those values, and let them guide behavior, rather than dictating a list from the top. Managers are the lever here, coaching people in the moment about how their behavior lands.
The catch is that organizations rarely give managers the skills, the permission, or the empowerment to do that coaching, so it never becomes part of the job. Reframing core values at work as lived behavior, not posted slogans, is what makes them real.
Catherine Mattice’s approach to making trust measurable, by tracking the behaviors that reveal it rather than relying on a single survey score. Think outside the box about what trust looks like in action, then find the numbers behind it.
Include a trust score inside your culture survey. It is the simplest signal, and it sets a baseline you can move quarter over quarter, the same way you would track any other KPI.
Count the resignations that catch managers off guard. Fewer surprise exits means managers sense concerns early and can have the conversation before someone leaves. A high surprise rate means people did not trust the employer enough to speak up.
Measure how often people come to HR for informal coaching before a problem becomes a formal complaint. When HR is seen as a partner rather than the principal’s office, those subtle conversations rise, and that is a trust signal.
Decide what trust looks like in action inside your organization, name the behaviors you want to see and not see, then find where you can measure them. Trust becomes a KPI the moment you attach behavior and numbers to it.
If the link between trust and performance is obvious, why is trust so rarely measured? Catherine’s answer is candid. The logic that cared-for people care back should not need an ROI case, yet in practice many CEOs still do not buy it, so HR is left building the business case before anyone will act. The fix she keeps returning to is structural: rebrand HR.
For too long HR has carried the reputation of the principal’s office, the place you avoid until something explodes. If HR instead becomes known as a coach, a helper, and a partner, people will bring the small conflicts early, which both resolves problems sooner and generates a measurable trust signal.
The same instinct that makes someone hide a problem is the instinct that, once removed, lets you measure trust through how freely people reach out.
This is also why an employee trust survey works best when paired with behavioral signals like exit interviews rather than standing alone.
Catherine’s change work leans heavily on peer accountability, which follows directly from the idea that culture lives in daily interactions. Her teams train people to be upstanders, because if everyone can hold each other accountable, then everyone is accountable for the culture. That is how communities function.
What blocks it inside companies is the familiar brush-off: someone raises a concern about a colleague and hears “that is just how they are” or “let it go.” Without explicit permission to get involved, people stay silent, and accountability never becomes shared.
Building real accountability in the workplace means equipping people to raise issues directly and backing them when they do.
If we can all hold each other accountable, then we’re all accountable for the culture. But organizations need to give people the tools and the permission to hold each other accountable.
When Civility Partners enters an organization, much of the work is bringing the elephants out of the room: facilitating the difficult one-on-one conversations between people and departments that have stopped talking to each other. The advice Catherine gives most often is also the simplest. Get people to talk about the conflict, because it has to come out.
It is not in our nature to dive in front of a bus, so a neutral outsider often has to create the safe space first, but the answer is almost always the same: surface the issue, talk it through, and it can only get better from there. The end state is an organization that owns that work itself, not one that needs a consultant forever.
See how CultureMonkey’s pulse survey tools and real-time sentiment analysis help people teams hear what employees actually feel, catch concerns early, and turn culture into decisions managers act on.
On AI, Catherine’s answer is reassuringly consistent with everything else: people still have to be human, and you still have to have the conversations. AI can help at the margins, for example by letting you run a scenario through a tool that understands a colleague’s personality profile before a difficult conversation, so you choose the right approach.
And while some jobs will be replaced, new ones appear, because someone has to manage the AI that does the work. The risk is not the technology itself but what we let it do to our attention and our relationships.
We can’t just lose the humanity just because we’re using AI.
She draws a sharp analogy to social media. Posting a photo and collecting likes gives a false sense of importance, and she suspects AI will have its own hard-to-predict effects on our personalities and mental health. The discipline, then, is self-awareness: keep the human conversations going, do not let the tool take over, and remember that simply talking about the uncertainty openly already helps.
Most organizations, she notes, are figuring AI out at the same pace as everyone else, so leaders do not need to pretend they are further ahead than they are.
Catherine’s closing argument ties the whole conversation together: culture belongs on the strategic plan, right next to market share, customer scores, and revenue. The mechanism is the same one used for every other strategic goal. Set a benchmark, build a plan, implement it, then check the data to see if it is working.
Pulse surveys give you that loop for culture. You can point to a specific question, run the survey again, and watch whether the score on that question improved, which is how you know change is actually happening.
But the survey only works if people feel heard, and feeling heard depends on action. Catherine is emphatic that humans are not cogs in a wheel, and that giving and receiving feedback is a basic need. So her practical tip is to publish the results, including the bad and the ugly, alongside what you plan to do about them.
Publishing does something subtle and powerful: it shows the employee who had a bad experience that they are not alone, which builds community and buy-in. She has seen the same effect with live anonymous polls in training, where people who feel fine suddenly see that half the room does not feel psychologically safe, and that data creates the buy-in to act. Without that visible follow-up, a survey changes nothing.
With it, you close the employee feedback loop and connect culture directly to engagement and performance.
We are not cogs in a wheel, and we absolutely, as a basic human need, require feedback and the ability to give feedback and to feel heard.
People do not perform when they feel their company is not loyal to them, and they will not stay loyal if their ideas are never heard. Tie those behaviors to the goals leaders already care about, and trust stops being a soft sentiment and starts being a culture of performance.
That is the playbook: make trust a KPI, measure it through behavior, refresh values from the ground up, share accountability, and use pulse surveys to keep the loop alive.

About the guest
Founder and CEO, Civility Partners
Catherine Mattice, MA, SPHR, SHRM-SCP, is the founder and CEO of Civility Partners, an organizational development firm focused on helping organizations create respectful workplace cultures and specializing in turning around toxic cultures. Civility Partners’ clients range from Fortune 500s to small businesses across many industries. Catherine is a TEDx speaker and an HR thought leader who has appeared in venues such as USA Today, Bloomberg, CNN, NPR, and many other national news outlets as an expert.
She is an award-winning speaker, author, and blogger, and has developed more than 60 courses reaching global audiences on LinkedIn Learning. Her fourth book, Navigating Toxic Work Environments For Dummies (Wiley), is available in all major bookstores and wherever audiobooks are sold.
Season 06, Episode 12 · Catherine Mattice with Darcy Mehta · 37 min
Trust usually breaks through subtle, repeated behaviors rather than a single dramatic event. Catherine Mattice points to microaggressions, gossip, incivility, and sarcasm, the small actions that are not against any policy and so go unaddressed. In isolation each one looks minor, but together they become death by a thousand cuts. When managers let those moments slide, trust erodes and disengagement follows, so the fix is addressing small behaviors early instead of waiting for a formal complaint.
Engagement is an outcome of culture, not culture itself. A strong engagement score signals that your culture is probably healthy, but it does not explain what is happening underneath. Catherine Mattice recommends measuring trust, relationships, psychological safety, and efficiency alongside engagement, and pairing the numbers with listening sessions. That way the score becomes a starting point for understanding the culture that produced it, rather than the final word on whether the culture is working.
Measure trust through behavior, not just a survey score. Catherine Mattice tracks four signals: a direct trust question inside the culture survey; surprise exits, where fewer surprises means managers sense concerns early; early, informal HR conversations, which rise when people see HR as a partner rather than the principal’s office; and named trust behaviors you decide to watch for. Define what trust looks like in action, then find where you can put numbers on it.
Put culture on the strategic plan and run it like any other goal. Pulse surveys with tools like CultureMonkey let you set a benchmark, build a plan, act on it, and re-measure a specific question to confirm progress. The critical step is acting on results and publishing them, including the difficult findings, alongside what you will do next. Publishing shows employees they are not alone, builds buy-in, and proves feedback leads to change. Without visible follow-up, a survey changes nothing.
Start with a culture survey that goes beyond engagement, then add KPIs around trust. Catherine Mattice advises measuring relationships, psychological safety, and efficiency, or running listening sessions, so you understand the culture that drives the engagement score. From there, define the behaviors that indicate trust, decide where to measure them, and set improvement targets. The goal is to treat culture as a strategic priority with benchmarks and follow-through, not a once-a-year survey that nothing changes after.
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