HR as Chief Disruption Officer: Why Supporting the Business Is a Ceiling, with Jennifer McClure

Hello, everyone, and welcome to season seven of CultureClub X, powered by CultureMonkey. I'm your host, Darcy Mehta. CultureMonkey is an AI-powered enterprise employee engagement platform that helps people leaders listen to their employees and build stronger workplace cultures. CultureClub X is our global thought leadership forum where CHROs, people leaders, and workplace experts share insights, discuss emerging trends, and exchange practical strategies for building thriving future-ready organizations.

Today we are delighted to welcome Jennifer McClure, globally recognized keynote speaker, executive advisor, and future of work strategist. Jennifer, welcome. It's so wonderful to have you with us.

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here with you today.

Yes, definitely. So am I. So Jennifer is the CEO of Unbridled Talent and the founder and Chief Excitement Officer of DisruptHR, a global leadership movement with active communities across more than 28 countries. Through her work, Jennifer helps HR and business leaders build influence, lead through disruption, and take a more active role in shaping the future of work. Her work focuses on areas including AI transformation, future-ready leadership, and building cultures that can thrive through continuous change.

Jennifer, your work has consistently challenged HR leaders to think beyond traditional responsibilities and take a more active role in shaping how organizations respond to disruption and change. Before we get into the discussion, could you just share a little bit about your own leadership journey and what led you to focus so strongly on disruption, future-ready leadership, and the evolving role of HR?

well that's we could be here all day, but I will shorten it. I spent Well about eighteen and a half years in HR, human resources as a leader and executive in the corporate world, and then transitioned into executive search for about four years. So working kind of from the other perspective with companies to identify and bring in leadership talent that was the right culture, character, chemistry match for their organization. And in 2010, I started my own business, which is Unbridled Talent. And thank you, you said it correctly. Most people somehow messed that one up.

And through that company, I am a professional speaker and I do some executive coaching. So I started my business as a speaker because I wanted to talk about topics that are important to HR leadership in particular, but leaders in general, people leaders is, you know, everyone who is a leader should be a good people leader. and so it kind of led me in that direction because those were the topics that I were most interested in.

And of course, as an HR practitioner, I was also doing benefits and workers' comp and employ, you know, things that weren't always as exciting to me as the more strategic level thinking in HR. So being a speaker, I always say I'm a student of the work. So it allows me to really spend my days.

you know, both talking to companies and leaders and organizations about what they're experiencing, studying, you know, studies, research, et cetera, that's out there so that I can help guide people or provide them with resources or learning so that they can perform in their role, whether that's in corporate or even if they are also someone who works from an advisory perspective. So I enjoy that. You know, how did I get focused on disruption?

About three years into my journey as a speaker, was talking with a local startup entrepreneur here in Cincinnati about kind of what I was seeing out there as I was, you know, at 50 or 60 conferences a year speaking on the stage. And I shared with him that I was hearing a lot of the same topics on those conference stages and hearing a lot of the same people. And I always say that's not a criticism of any conference or event. Most people go to one, not 50 or 60.

And conferences do need to have, you know, reliable proven speakers on their stage and particularly for HR conferences in the US at least, they need certain types of sessions focused so that people can get their professional development credits. So that wasn't a criticism, but it was more that I came from it from a curiosity standpoint of I felt like there were probably people out there that had ideas to share. there were different perspectives than the HR perspective about work and the workplace.

And I was kind of thinking in my mind about how I could, you know, give some of those people an opportunity to share those ideas. And thankfully, my friend was a community organizer for Ignite events in Cincinnati at the time, which those are community-driven events where people can speak about a topic that's important to them. And he suggested that we use their format, the five-minute, 20 slides that automatically advance every 15-second format. And allow kind of that same process for people to kind of raise their hand and say, I'd like to share my idea and get on stage.

And I think we both thought that would just be something that would happen here in Cincinnati maybe once or maybe once a year. but it kind of took off from there. And now today we have a hundred and seventy licensed cities in twenty-eight countries, as you mentioned, and there have been over eleven thousand DisruptHR talks given and Almost every one of them has a five minute video out there on our website and Vimeo channel. Some of them, you know, can even have to us here in Cincinnati.

The they didn't load the SD card and the video recorder, which is seems to be the one job you know of the eleven thousand talks, you can find most of them out there online. So, you know, that's that's something I do more as, you know, I chose the title randomly, Chief Excitement Officer, just because didn't want to be the CEO of another one person company, but I see that really it was kind of prescient in a in a way because I see my role as the Chief Excitement Officer. I encourage people to share their ideas.

I try to highlight some of the best ones that are on stages and I support the local license holders and organizers and in putting on events that match with their culture of their community. So you know, it's a great opportunity. It's not, you know, How I make a living or my day job in a sense, but I really feel like I'm supporting the global HR community at large and the people leader community at large through DisruptHR. And so many people have shared again great unique ideas on stage. Some people have just simply challenged themselves to give a talk and they were able to check that off the list.

It might not have been great, but you know, it was great that they had the opportunity and maybe I've heard from many people who DisruptHR was their first speaking experience and now they're a professional speaker. So and I always, when I go to DisruptHR events or even some of the videos I watch, when I go up to the speaker afterwards and I say, you know, that was a great talk. I really enjoyed it. And they'll often say, That's my first time ever speaking.

And I'm sitting out there in the audience saying, This is exactly why we're doing this, because those people are in a company somewhere and no one's ever asked them to share their idea or no one's ever, you know. them an opportunity to speak or to lead. and so hopefully DisruptHR gives them more courage and confidence to do that.

Wow. I love everything about this. And you know, just so wonderful that, like you said, you're giving people an opportunity, giving them a platform. you know, I love hearing ideas. I'm an idea generator too. And you may be the first Chief Excitement Officer I've ever met, but I love that title. That's so cool. And I'm excited to hear your thoughts for today's discussion. So thank you so much for sharing that. And it's just wonderful to hear. everyone's different leadership journeys and how you've started your own business and got to where you are today. So

Yeah, well thanks for asking.

definitely. So you've said before, most HR leaders think their job is to support the business. That's not a strategy, it's a ceiling. What is the single biggest mindset shift that separates tomorrow's HR leaders from those who remain permanently stuck in an operational support role?

I'm I'm almost, I guess I'm a broken record at this point, but like my answer to that is I believe that human resources is the job in every organization that has the opportunity for the most influence and impact in the organization. Now every now and then someone will challenge me on that and say, no, everyone's important and everyone has the opportunity. And I say, absolutely, everyone's important, everyone has an opportunity to create influence and impact.

But by nature of the job of HR, the work that we do touches every employee in some way, whether it's the policies that we create or administer or the benefit plans that we bring in and provide to our employees or the compensation systems that we set up. That impacts people across the organization. So I think the leaders in HR, and that's again my mission as a speaker, is I'm trying to encourage you to step into that opportunity. Because Some HR leaders are already there and they're doing great work. You know, they're really at the leadership table in their company.

They're making business decisions and then figuring out how to translate the people into making those business decisions successful. and they're there. There are some who say they want to be there, but maybe they don't know how. And so I'm here to help, you know, them see the path. And some who say they want to be there who really don't. You know, there are still HR leaders out there and there are still companies out there that want HR leaders who are more administrative, more tactical, more supporters of the business, more responsive.

And so sometimes there's a tension with the HR leaders in those companies where they'll come up to me after one of my sessions where I've encouraged them to be the Chief Disruption Officer in their organization leading transformation and change. And they'll say, you know, I'd love to do everything you said, Jennifer, but my leadership won't let me. And my response to them sometimes, you know, I can see that wasn't what they were expecting. My response is, have you ever made the business case for why you should be? Have you showed them the value that you provide in dollars and cents?

Or have you showed them where you not being involved is costing the company money or opportunities? And if you haven't done that, how can you say that your leadership won't let you? If you just go in and say, I wanna be at the executive team and I wanna report to the CEO, and the CEO says, No, you didn't Give them a reason why. you know, so you can say my leadership won't let me, but you have a responsibility there too.

And if you find yourself in a role where you've truly shown the value that you and your team can provide and you truly are focused on the business and making sure that we're delivering on business objectives through people, and your leadership still pushes back or resists that, then maybe you are in the wrong place. But I think it's a much smaller percentage that are in. the wrong place than there are people who are actually very comfortable just staying administrative and tactical and they're actually in the right company that expects them to do that.

So maybe everyone will be happier if you just go, I should just realize that this is where I'm happy and I'm comfortable and that's okay.

Mm-hmm. That's true. I mean, recognizing where you're at, where you want to be, but then also being proactive, like you said. You know, make the case for, you know, the business value and don't just don't just take no, be proactive and at least explain and try, And we as

HR leaders, how long how we've all had it happen where, you know, managers go out and they tell employees that they can't do something and they say because HR said. And the HR is like, we never had any opportunity to have input on that. The easy fallback guy. Mm-hmm. So it's the same for a lot of HR where they, my leadership won't let me. And I'm like, have they really said they won't let you, or have you just not approached it in a way that they can see why it's the right thing to do?

are you scared to disrupt things, right? So, okay, let's dive into this more, which you already mentioned, HR as Chief Disruption Officer, which you've turned into one of your most in-demand keynotes at SHRM and major HR conferences globally. So, what does it mean for an HR leader to be a Chief Disruption Officer? And why is strategic disruption one of the most underused capabilities in the HR profession today?

Again, I think, you know, people like myself, I've been in and around HR for four decades now or almost four decades. So obviously when I started many years ago, HR was pretty much it was called personnel and it was pretty transactional and that was what was expected. And you know, running payroll and you know, doing a lot of paperwork and filing was a big part of the job. But obviously the opportunity and the capability of HR has come a long way over those forty years. So back to what I feel like my role is to help HR leaders step into that opportunity.

When I say I think the HR leaders should be the Chief Disruption Officer, you know, maybe you don't have officer titles in your company, but I want you to think about your role. Again, I feel like you're the you're the role that has the most opportunity for influence and impact. So how can you truly make that happen? And that involves leading transformation, being aware, culturally aware, not just of what's going on in your own company, but what's going on out there in the world. What are the things that are impacting work and the workplace?

What are the predictions for the future of, for example, demographic changes? You know, we're all in this space right now where, you know, a lot of people and again maybe rightly so, are worried that AI is going to take their jobs. Well, over the years we've seen things like when the internet became a thing, You know, there's sometime in the early 2000s was when it really became a thing. And then all the chatter was that the internet was going to replace all these jobs. And then it became, you know, something like job boards was going to replace all the recruiters. None of that has truly happened.

What has happened over time with all of these big disruptions were, yes, some jobs as they were are no more, but it created a need for new or different jobs or jobs where different skills were applied. So We as HR leaders need to be looking out into the future and say, with AI, for example. And I was on a podcast last week where we actually challenged ourselves not to talk about AI and the podcast host failed first. So it's hard though not to talk about work and AI. And I see HR as the role and the person that should be leading that transformation in their organization.

And sometimes people there at HR will say, Well, our IT CIOs leading that, or you know, operations is leading that. And I feel like if we allow that to happen, then the people will get left out of the decision making there. That's where we've been for the last couple of years with AI, is we are seeing people lay off because they're thinking, well, AI is going to make us more productive, it's going to make us more efficient, it's going to eliminate these entry-level jobs.

Now what we're seeing is the bounce back is happening where companies are saying, We didn't actually get the productivity gains that we thought we would from AI. And what we found is this the humans were actually, you know, doing some things that are very important that AI either can't do or doesn't do well. So if HR is at this, you know, has that quote seat at the table in those discussions. And to be fair, you know, maybe you're not the designated leader on the org chart, but you can still lead in terms of AI transformation.

And your role there is not just to represent the people side, but also again to think from a business perspective. Maybe in some cases, again, it does make sense for us to reduce headcount in some ways. I'm not saying we should always just advocate, you know, that everything be a people plus decision. You can do things a different way though.

You could also be the one that's saying, okay, if we're going to have to, you know, eliminate these 30 jobs, do those people have skills that maybe we can, you know, either train them in some other things or reskill them or upscale them for some of the open jobs in our company. So again, that's what often gets missed. And even in my own career, the last role that I had as a VP of HR in a company that hadn't laid off in years.

And then we got bought out by a large corporation and because they needed to hit in certain targets for Wall Street, we got the call that like you're gonna have to cut expenses by X by the end of this month. And The first thing our VP of operations did was go back and figure out how many jobs he could cut. And he came to me and he gave me the list and he was like, We need to cut like forty-three people. That doesn't sound like a lot, maybe to some people, but that was in a workforce of about seven hundred. And again, we had successfully not laid off and really built a trust with our employees.

And I took that list and I said, I think this is too many. number one, I don't think we can need to lay out 43 because I'd come from a Japanese organization where we did things during downturns to keep people working, like eliminating the office cleaning staff, you know, that was a contract where they were playing and employees emptied garbage and cleaning up. We eliminated people that mowed the yard or the lawn in front of them and had employees doing that. We sent employees for you know intensive training that we normally would have taken them off their job to do.

So we took some financial hits to keep our employees working. But they never forgot that. And it really created a loyalty and it was a big part of our culture. So I tried to take that same kind of mentality to this decision at this new organization where the VP of operations is saying cut 43 jobs in my in my department. And I looked through that and I found people that could be redeployed elsewhere. I found some names that were actually listed twice on his list because he paid such attention to detail in regards to people's lives and livelihood.

And You know, fortunately or unfortunately, I got that list down to thirteen people that everyone buy into. I was still I was still advocating again, maybe not making the business case effectively enough that we didn't need to eliminate those thirteen people either. But the decision was made to lay off the thirteen people. We made the announcement. It was a big hit to employee morale, a big hit to our employer brand reputation. And then within two months, I was told to see if I could bring those thirteen people back. You know, so Look at that.

You know, that's a place where even I could have maybe done some I did a big I did a lot, but I could have done more to make it make sense from a financial perspective because again, your corporate says to cut expenses and you've got to do that. But I did the best I could, but I didn't do enough. And I think again, that shows the level of impact that HR can have if they know the business well enough. to in that instance, for example, to say, here's where we can save costs elsewhere, and we won't have to eliminate this person that's been with us for 12 years.

There are just so many opportunities out there where I think HR can lead, but we have to be in the room where the decisions are made in order to know where that opportunity lies.

Absolutely. I mean, you that's a great example. I mean, of HR being more involved, more proactive. I mean, probably in the past, and I'm sure s even now certain organizations and HR leader might have just taken that and well, that's what lead, you know, that's what the VP says. All right, I'm gonna just, you know, do those tasks, those kind of admin tax of laying off those people. But you thought creatively of how to change things and you know, look what it turned out. So that's that's huge and a good example of, you know. Thinking about the business side, thinking more broadly and encompassing all of it.

So, you know, we're talking about being a disruption, you know, officer and doing more. But you've also said HR isn't just tired, it's caring too much and something has to change. So what are the two or three things HR leaders must stop doing in 2026 to create the capacity to lead real strategic transformation rather than simply manage it?

Stop being reactive. in other words, waiting for decisions to get made and then seeing how you can quote support that. In the example that I just gave, for example, I was in the room when we got the directive to reduce costs.

I, you know, received from someone who went and took action, you know, at an action plan, but I took action to try to help the business, not just to not lay off a certain number of people, but Again, the impacts on our employer brand, the impacts on our ability to hire people, the impact on morale and culture, you know, those are things that are maybe less intangible or less tangible, but that's what I bring to the table. So stop being reactive and you know, again in that example, if I had just taken that list and laid off 43 people, really get involved and understand how you can lead.

Another thing again would be along those lines is similar to what we talked about earlier, to view your role as a business leader rather than the HR leader. you have the opportunity to impact the business as a whole. Nothing happens in the business without people, whether it's innovation, creativity, productivity, efficiency, all of that stuff involves people. And that's your area of expertise. So why would you view your role as secondary to other leaders?

Even if you are not on the organization chart reporting to the top of the company, or even if you're not yet in the room where the decisions are made, find ways that you can still act in that way, that you are leading business transformation because you impact that through the talent strategy. And I guess a third would be to really I'll say again. View your role as the opportunity to have influence and impact. With that opportunity comes great responsibility. If you truly are able to influence and impact other people, that usually or always means that you have the relationships to be able to do so.

You have the trust of people both personally and professionally, that you have communicated effectively. So that is a role that is so valuable. If you have that trust, you know, respect in the relationships. You can get so much done in an organization when you have that. And I don't want people to again think that there's not a new opportunity for that if they want it and they truly want it. And I want them to step into that and find ways to develop that influence. I think John Maxwell says, you know, leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less.

And it's something, it's such an important key to n every leader, but again, particularly HR leaders. being able to get your ideas heard, to be able to have an impact, to make change, to lead transformation, that influence is available, I think, to most HR leaders, and I want them to claim it.

I love that. Very actionable tip. So those are so great. Stop being reactive, view yourself as a business leader, and embrace opportunity. Those are great. Okay, research consistently shows that HR leaders who build strong executive relationships and cross-functional credibility are more likely to drive lasting organizational change. What is the one investment most HR leaders consistently avoid that quietly limits their influence and impact?

Such a great follow-up question to where we just were relationships, Thank you. you know. So again, relationships moving beyond just that we're peers on the again the organization chart. Relationship development truly means that you care about the other person, that you invest in them. And I think again for HR leaders, an easy way to develop those relationships is To have meetings with your peer leaders, you know, if you're the CHRO, then you need to be meeting with the CMO and the COO and the CIO and to talk with them individually about their priorities and their priorities for their team.

I always suggest to HR leaders go to those, you know, peer leaders of the functions and say, What you know, we have these seven or eight core business objectives, increase top line revenue, you know, improve quality, improve customer satisfaction that, you know, most every company has. Top strategic objectives that fall in those areas and say, so with these strategic objectives, do you see anything or is there anything happening in your team and your organization that could potentially prevent us from hitting that? And you're going to hear back, and I always say, ask for three things. People like to fill this.

If I just ask you a big question, they kind of might look up and ramble. But if I say, can you tell me three things that might prevent you and your team from helping us to achieve, you know, increase in top line revenue? You will more than likely hear back some version of, I don't have enough people, I don't have the right people, my people don't have the right tools, they don't have the right training. Because again, people drive every aspect of the business. And so when I ask a leader what is or some of the roadblocks standing in their way, it's almost always something people related.

Now, again, it could be something like, our pricing structure changed this year, and our customers are having difficulty under, you know, taking in the increase in prices. And you're like, what's the people angle to that? If I'm a strategic HR leader, then I take that answer and I need to go back and find the people angle to that. Are our salespeople not trained well enough in communication skills so that they can sell this new pricing increase to our customers? have we communicated it well and effectively? You know, there are plenty of ways that I can find the people angle. So what by doing that?

I can develop really strong relationships with my peers because people like you when you are helping them to achieve their goals. So if I leave that meeting and say, I hear what you're saying, you're saying that your people don't have the tools and the training to effectively do what they are going to need to do to help us hit that objective. What if I come back to you in a week or a couple of weeks and I give you a proposal on maybe a training structure and You can help me develop the objectives for that training, and then we can talk about how we can get your people through that.

You think that leader is going to be going, no, don't do that for me. I just told you they have a problem. You're offering an opportunity to provide a solution to them so that they are able to hit their goals, which ultimately helps the company, which ultimately helps the employees and everyone. But you have shown a strategic relationship and a partnership and a willingness to help. them achieve objectives.

The next time you need something, let's say that was the CMO that you talked to, the next thing time you need something from marketing, they're more than likely going to want to help you achieve whatever you need. That's what relationships are, and again, that's building influence. So to answer your question, it's double down on relationships. Too often HR and maybe it, you know, it happens to all of us, You get a new leader into the organization. The VP of sales is hired from another company where they had a terrible relationship with HR and they didn't trust HR.

So by default, they come in and they think HR is the bad guy and they don't trust you. You've got to overcome that. You've got to show them that you can be trusted. You've got to show them that you're invested in their success. You've got to show them that you truly are on the business strategy side, not just the people's side.

So there are challenges with developing those relationships, but I think you have to overcome those because that's the only way you're going to be successful and the only way the company's going to be successful is if everyone's working together as a team and sometimes HR is automatically seen as the odd one out, your opportunity is to change that.

definitely. It's it's an opportunity. It's a fun challenge, right? And finding that people angle. And of course, relationships are a two-way street. And like you said, if someone comes in from the outside and you know views HR one way, you know, it's up to you. The best way to build a good relationship is being proactive, right? By helping someone else, by listening, by helping their department. And it's gonna build that trust, right? So absolutely. So we've touched on AI.

already in this conversation, only 28% of HR leaders report feeling fully confident leading AI-driven transformation inside their organizations. What is the specific courage gap holding HR leaders back from the AI shift? And what does leading through it without losing your people look like in practice?

Sure. My guess is if we get all leaders, not just HR leaders, to answer some question like that honestly, no one is fully competent in their ability because AI is new. Yes, it's been around for four years, but my gosh, just the That's it the pace of change in the last six months with the top platforms and what they're developing and what they can do is mind-boggling in some ways. But I think we have to look at it in the sense that. No one's born naturally competent. Maybe some there's a difference. Some people say they are, so maybe that's arrogance. But the truth is we haven't experienced all of the things.

So the opportunity again is to dive in, to acknowledge your deficiencies, to be curious about how you can overcome those, to find people who are using it effectively, to ask if you can learn from them. We have to add this as something that is a necessary part of our business. It was funny, I just, you know, spoke at the annual SHRM conference with 20,000 plus people in June. And my t session was around Chief Disruption Officer and how you can lead transformation in your organization. And of course, again, we did talk about HI and I A AI and I shared what I said earlier about how I believe HR should lead it.

When I went in to look at the comments that were received on the session, once they put those out there. One person commented, I hate that my boss went to this session because immediately afterwards she sent me an email and told me that I need to lead AI in our organization. Like I don't already have enough to do. Now that is hilarious to me in a lot of ways. Does that mean the person also attended the session or their boss went and they found a way to get into my session and complain? Ha, that's interesting.

But you know,

I think there are again, there are HR leaders out there that are And leaders in general who are trying to say, this AI thing, I'm just it's over there, I'm over here, I don't wanna learn it. People will tell me what I need to do. And that's a mistake for everyone. You know, my mom retired from her job as an office manager at eighty two. about four or five years before that, she had always done it was a small office equipment. company that was owned by her brother. And she was the relationship person in the community. You know, they got a lot of customers because she was like the unofficial mayor of the community.

And she had done bookkeeping for, you know, most of her life. And so she still sent out handwritten invoices and she'd call the customers, you know, so there was a lot of her involved in the accounts payable and receivables. The owner of the company one day implemented Peachtree Software, which is kind of like a standard for small businesses or it was then. And my mother immediately said, I won't learn it. I won't do it. I if I have to quit, then I will do so. Thankfully they kind of like, you know, maybe gave her some little crumbs along the way. She eventually did learn it.

But and because she didn't want to leave, you know, ultimately the work was important to her and it helped her to, you know, live as long as she did to be actively engaged. and she was valuable enough that they didn't just say, Okay, well see ya bye. They said, Peggy, we want you to, you know, let's help you. but I see a lot of people, leaders, in particular HR leaders, who are kind of taking that approach. I won't learn and I won't do it. And we're not gonna be able to do that with this. How many maybe of the same type of people said, I won't learn the internet or I won't do email?

Or I won't learn social media, or we're gonna block social media in our company. There have been markers throughout our history where maybe there's been some initial resistance, but sooner or later, you know, my mom ended up with an iPhone, you know, in her 80s, you know. So you know she just initially Wow. That's impressive. wanted it to use Google Maps, but eventually she was like looking up stuff like everybody else. We have to approach this as this is a requirement for every job.

And again, do I want to be leading the charge or do I want to be waiting for people to tell me how it's going to impact me and my team and our organization? I prefer to be in the room again where the discussion is happening, where I can have input into how we're going to influence or imp in roll this in our organization and where I can also make sure that the people side is considered because people are looking for me to do that or they're not thinking of that first. So all of those HR leaders out there.

That are saying they don't want to know more about AI, or the person whose boss told them that they needed to lead AI and is now angry about that. I think they're going to have to change. you know, that we just don't, we won't have room. Those will be the people, you know, the early saying was your job may not get eliminated by AI, but it will get eliminated by someone who knows how to use it. That's the situation that's going to happen for those people who. try to ignore it, who try to wait for others to tell them how to use it.

They're gonna end up missing a real opportunity to again be a part of one of the biggest, if not the biggest, changes that's happened in our human history, not just to humans in general, but certainly to the workplace. So why not dive in there and learn with everybody else? Get your sleeves rolled up, make some mistakes, do some things wrong so that you learn what you need to do right. but there's also when you're trying things and failing, there's also opportunities to try and succeed. And so the most important part is just Good way to put it. to try.

That's a good way to put it. And change is difficult. I mean, change is hard. Nobody wants it, but change is necessary for growth, right? and AI is a whole discussion, of course. I'm sure we could, you know, have a whole session on that, but you also make a good point. I think HR leaders are uniquely positioned to not only embrace AI, but then you're the one that's gonna need to find out how do we you know, balance this with the human element and everything. And so, you know, it's a unique opportunity is a way to look at it for HR leaders for sure.

So okay, switching gears a little bit, DisruptHR has run more than 600 events across more than 150 cities globally, creating a large grassroots community around HR innovation. After a decade of bold HR ideas, what is the one thing The HR profession still consistently gets wrong about its own potential to drive business transformation.

That's that's a good question, or the way you framed it. How That's it. does HR consistently get wrong? I guess back to what I've said earlier, that it's not their biggest opportunity. Again, they have to wait to be invited. you know, step in, show what you can do, ask for, you know, the opportunity, ask to be a part of the leadership team, ask to be on the project team that's implementing AI. Don't sit back and wait to be asked and don't sit back and wait for things to happen. So yes, as I said earlier, there are plenty of HR leaders who are doing that, doing it well.

Many companies that, you know, value HR and definitely are looking at their top HR person as a critical part of their leadership team. but there are still quite a few HR leaders, and again, I hear from them who are saying, I don't have that opportunity. I think I want it, but I don't know how to pursue it. and I want to help you with that. But also there are some that are still saying, I don't want it, and I wish the world wasn't changing like it is. Can't we just you know, how many times do we say during the pandemic, I can't wait till we get back to normal?

And everybody was like, you know, normal is never gonna happen again. And it didn't. And every day there's a new normal. So you see the studies out there now that say that. some of the top skills or I don't know if they're skills or abilities that we're looking for in people is agility and adaptability.

you know, you can teach people the nuts and bolts of the job or the tactical aspects of the job, but if they aren't of the mindset of the world is changing and we'll continue to change and my job is to figure out how to roll with that change and stay as ahead of it if I can, that's the people who are going to lead in the future of work. are those that are saying, okay, change happens and not, you know, getting too stuck in their feelings about this really sucks the way work is changing.

Instead figuring out, okay, the work is changing, the world is changing, this new tool, this new AI capability has entered the chat. so how do we make sure that we're using that effectively, that we're continuing to grow, adapt, you know, help our people grow and adapt in Again, that's a big responsibility that HR has is how do we bring the people along with the decisions that we're making as an organization? And more and more the importance of we have this fantasy that all these people are gonna be eliminated, their jobs are gonna be eliminated, so they'll all be available to work.

Well, there will be people whose jobs will be eliminated, but they won't have the skills to do the jobs that you have. So rethinking how we fill opportunities or how we upskill or reskill people or how we train new hires to do the jobs that we have instead of thinking how do we hire someone who exactly matches the mold of what we're looking for in this job? Because more and more that person will not exist.

There will be people and there are people out there today on the labor market who are available who could potentially be reskilled to do the jobs you have open, but your job is remaining open for Two months, three months, four months, because you're looking for a person who has those skills already and they're either not available or they're too expensive for you to buy away from their current opportunity. But we could have spent four months training someone on how to do that and getting them up to speed in our organization rather than waiting to hire the person with the right job.

So that's again a mindset shift from 10 years ago, or maybe even five years ago, maybe pre-pandemic, where even when I worked in executive recruiting and certainly when I worked in recruiting and organizations, managers always want to see more people. You know, you present three candidates who could do the job and they're like, these are great, but I just want to see more people because I think there's somebody out who's better. Change that mindset. Hire people who are capable, who are adaptable, who are agile, who are curious enough to want to learn and grow and develop.

And you're going to be much better off than the organizations who are looking forever for people to fill their jobs and not finding them because they simply aren't there. You know, you see I see it sometimes where people will post a humorous job description that says, you know, must have 20 years of AI experience or something like that. And they're like, AI wasn't around 20 years ago, but that's what we think. Well, we want somebody who's super experienced with AI. Well, there are people who have more experience than others, but no one's super experienced. So let's figure out how we can all grow together.

But that's the good way to put it. How can we grow together? And, you know, adaptability, agility, those were important skills before, even more so now with AI and everything. so you may have answered the next question, but let's just, you know, break it down. What is the one non-negotiable action every HR leader should take in the next 90 days to move from operational executor to strategic influencer? And how would you measure that shift six months from now?

Well again, I go back to relationships. do you have the relationships that you need in order to be able to get things done in your organization? we all have people that we like working with more than others. So you may have a few of those leaders that you have, quote, a good relationship with or you think you do. And there may be others who you avoid like the plague. But in order to get your job done and in order to help the company, you've got to find a way to develop good relationships of trust and respect and capability between those people. So I would say double down on that.

and again, get really curious about the world and what's going on in the world. I've long, you know, coached HR leaders to say, look at your consumer experience. You know, you hear the examples all the time. I can go to Amazon and it offers up all these things that I probably will want to buy because of the things I bought before. The same with Netflix. I go to Netflix and it says, You watch this, you'll probably like that. And I've challenged HR leaders to say, How can you take that kind of thinking into your workplace?

Because y you know, again, I was I was alive when we all got, you know, BlackBerrys and things like that. And again, a lot of people said, I don't want it, you know, don't don't give me that. But once people got used to being able to go to Google and get instant answers for everything, or they got being used to being able to navigate, you know, digitally on their phone, et cetera, they no longer accept in the workplace that I have to send out a form and Put it in a yellow, do we even have yellow inner office envelopes anymore? Probably not. I hope not.

That used to be sent, you know, to take weeks to pass through everyone's desk to get a signature or something like that. Your employees won't accept that kind of workplace anymore because in their day-to-day experiences, they're able to do things much quicker and faster. So that applies now too. As an HR leader, be curious about how you interact with the world. And then is that different, better, you know, is it better or worse than what happens when you do similar actions in your workplace?

And if it's worse in your workplace than it is for me to navigate in the world, then that's an opportunity for disruption and transformation right there. And if what you have is better than what's out there in the world, yay, how can we apply that to other aspects of the business? So that curiosity, I think, is a real asset of. Always having your eyes open. And again, you might be an HR leader in a small town in the smallest state of your country or whatever that might be. and you're like, you know, we all our local our customers are local.

My guess is you're getting parts for your products or something from outside of your local area, et cetera. So what happens in the world does impact you. Absolutely. being aware again of both things that are impacting the economy, things that are impacting the global, you know, way of living.

It is a global economy, even if you feel like you're just serving local customers and what happens, you know, in the US, the demographics are shifting, the you know, the workforce age people are getting older, there are less people in the younger demographics to fill them, throw on top of that the skills are changing faster that are required for jobs are changing faster than ever before. We're back to maybe you only hire two or three people a year and when you hired somebody last year, you just put a help wanted sign out on the door and the perfect person walked in.

Well, now you can put that help wanted sign on the door and maybe 20 people walked in, but none of them have the ability to do the job. That's back to how do I get curious about we've got a labor supply here that we can use, but they're not skilled. What, you know, maybe we invest less in our recruiting and advertising for jobs and more in training people to do the jobs. So that curiosity I think is a real asset in a world that again is constantly changing. So develop those relationships, HR leaders.

Be curious and aware of what's going on in the world and think about how you can apply things in your workplace, even if it's going well. That's that's the part of being a disruptor, I think, that people often miss. They think of disruption of, you know, something new and different that's never happened before, you know, or taking something that's broken and fixing it and fixing it. And it certainly does include those things, but real disruption. You don't have to reinvent

the wheel, right? It's like you can just make something make something better, you know, just the be curious. You know, it's it's you might see something. How could we apply this? I think curiosity obviously is something important in all areas of life, but you know, especially here. So that's, you know. Right. But don't

miss those opportunities for things that are working quote well now because there may be an opportunity to make them work even better.

your eyes open and say, So always keep your eyes open.

This, you know, our onboarding process has been the same for the last fifteen years and it works, but it probably could be different, you know, instead of bringing people in a room and giving them twenty forms to sign, what if we sent them those twenty forms to their home, you know. the day before you know, the week before they came in the office, so that when they came in their c office and their computer and everything was all set up already. You know, that's back to if you had a the onboarding process was quote working, but it can be done different better because things have changed.

Mm-hmm. Yes, definitely. It's it's like with creativity. I always like that phrase. Creativity breeds more creativity. And the same is with positive change, with curiosity, right? You know, once you make that change and you look at something else, you know, maybe that could be a few steps eliminated or a little bit better. So no, thank you for that. I loved everything you said. That's great, great real time, you know, good actionable tips and advice.

And You know, I could keep talking to you all day, but for our last question, how can real-time employee listening platforms help HR leaders translate people data into the strategic business language they need to build executive credibility and influence at the board level?

I think the important role of any vendor relationship is to help HR leaders be able to make the business case in their organization for whatever it is they're recommending. You know, if they're recommending that we change something in our culture because of the data that we've we've gotten through employee surveys or whatever tools that we're using to listen to our employees, instead of just saying our employees said this, we need to do it. We need to show what not doing it is costing the company. Are we missing out on opportunities? Are we, is it, you know, causing us higher turnover?

Is it impacting our ability to hire? The vendors, I think, that can help HR leaders quantify that, both to you know, figure out what the levers are, but also provide dollars so that they can make a true business case to the leadership that something needs to change, either to take advantage of an opportunity or to avoid a crisis. Leaders talk in dollars and cents. HR's language has often just been it's the right thing to do. If we want leaders to actually buy into our decisions and say yes, we have to show them the dollars in the sense of the reason why we're proposing it in the first place.

And so the value the vendors that I always loved working with or the providers that I loved working with were the ones who would not just sell me the software and teach me how to use it. But then also teach me how to use the data to create the business case to actually make an impact change.

So true. What use is data if you don't use it in the correct way, right? And take action on it. So Jennifer, thank you so much. Like I said, I mean, I would love to keep chatting with you. I've already learned so much, and I know our listeners have too. And your insights have highlighted an important shift for HR leaders, moving beyond simply responding to organizational needs and taking a more active role in shaping the future of work, business strategy, and organizational change.

Leaders need to understand what employees are actually experiencing, identify the underlying issues, and connect those insights to meaningful business action. That's where continuous listening becomes so valuable. With pulse surveys and real time employee feedback, platforms like CultureMonkey can help HR leaders identify emerging employee needs. understand changes in sentiment and turn people data into actionable so insights that can support stronger decisions at the leadership level. And before we end, Jennifer, how can our listeners connect with you to continue the conversation or learn more about your work?

Sure. Thank you for the opportunity. You can find most things, all things, I guess, about Jennifer McClure and Unbridled Talent at jennifermcclure.net. Welcome to Connect on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear from you there. If you put in Jennifer McClure, I sure hope I come up first. I've been there for 20 plus years. So you should find me there. And then for DisruptHR, if you're interested in either watching some of the videos or finding out if an event is happening near you where you could possibly speak, disrupthr.co.

Okay, amazing. I'm definitely gonna watch those videos. I'm a public speaker myself, so thank you so much and to all our listeners, thank you for being here. Don't forget to follow, share, and subscribe. And that's a wrap for this episode of CultureClub X, powered by CultureMonkey. Until next time, I'm Darcy signing off.